把声音留在本地 Off the Cloud

在将近二十年的时间里，我今天这位嘉宾一直在深圳，建造着这个互联的世界。 For almost twenty years, my guest has been in Shenzhen, building the connected world.

先是手机，然后是最早的一批智能手表和可穿戴设备，这些设备存在的意义，就是把你和一切连起来。 Phones, and then some of the first smartwatches and wearables, devices whose whole job was to link you to everything.

他叫 Laurent Le Pen，是 Omate 的创始人，而且据 ChatGPT 说，还是深圳最有名的法国创业者。 His name is Laurent Le Pen, the founder of Omate, and according to ChatGPT at least, the most famous French entrepreneur in Shenzhen.

但他最新的公司，做的却和他过去造的一切恰恰相反。它叫 Oxtak，是一台小小的录音设备，只有一个激进的想法。 But his new company does the opposite of everything he's built before. It's called Oxtak, and it's a small recorder with one radical idea.

你的声音，永远不离开这台机器。不上云、不进手机、没有任何 App 能伸手进来。它在本地录下一切，然后，把它忘掉。 Your voice never leaves the device. No cloud, no phone, no app reaching in. It records everything locally, and then forgets about it.

因为用他的话说，在一个 AI 无时无刻不在聆听的世界里，你说过的话的原始录音，才是证据，才是那个随时可能被用来对付你的东西。 Because as he puts it, in a world of always-listening AI, the raw audio of what you said is the proof, the one thing that can always be used against you.

如果说数据是石油，他说，隐私将会比石油更珍贵。 If data is oil, he says, privacy is about to become even more precious than oil.

所以这期节目聊的是：当你按下录音键的那一刻，你的数据究竟去了哪里，以及在 AI 时代，你还能不能把它拿回来。这里是《雏形》。 So this is a conversation about where your data actually goes the moment you hit record, and whether, in the age of AI, you can ever really take it back. This is Prototype.

Laurent，欢迎来到《雏形》。你现在可是正式的，我看到你发的帖子了，深圳最有名的法国创业者。 Welcome to Prototype, Laurent. You are now officially, I saw your post, the most famous French entrepreneur in Shenzhen.

那其实是我侄子干的。当时家里人来看我，不知怎么就聊起在深圳有个叔叔这件事，于是他掏出手机，问深圳最有名的法国创业者是谁，结果我排在第一。 That was actually my nephew. Family was visiting, and somehow we got talking about having an uncle in Shenzhen, so he picked up his phone and asked who the most famous French entrepreneur in Shenzhen was, and I ranked first.

恭喜。如果 ChatGPT 上这么说，那就是真的了。 Congratulations. If it's on ChatGPT, that means it's true.

是啊，AI 上有的，那就是真的，它现在可不会胡编乱造了。 Yeah, if it's on AI, it's true, it doesn't hallucinate now.

你在深圳做硬件已经将近二十年了，从手机行业起步，还是最早一批做智能手表和各类可穿戴设备的人之一。 So you've been building hardware in Shenzhen for almost twenty years, starting in phones, and you were one of the earliest people to build smartwatches and all kinds of wearables.

在一个有了 AI、有了具身智能的未来里，用传统方式造硬件的经历，究竟给了你什么样的优势，是那些没有这段经历的创业者所不具备的？ What does building hardware the traditional way actually give you as an advantage, in a future of AI and physical AI, over founders who simply don't have that?

设计师和工业设计师之间，一直存在着差别，而深圳拥有全世界最庞大的工业设计师群体。设计师想的是它好不好看、手感如何；工业设计师还会问，它能不能用，以及，它到底能不能被真正制造出来。这就是身在深圳与生俱来的优势。 There's always been a difference between a designer and an industrial designer, and Shenzhen has the largest community of industrial designers in the world. A designer thinks about how it looks and how it feels; an industrial designer also asks, does it work, and can you actually manufacture it. That's the built-in advantage of being here.

我出身于欧洲的手机设计行业，诺基亚、索尼爱立信那个年代，我在法国的飞利浦手机部门工作，而那一切后来都转移到了深圳。 I came from mobile phone design in Europe, the Nokia and Sony Ericsson era, working at Philips Mobile in France, and all of that shifted to Shenzhen.

如今是在库比蒂诺设计，在中国由那家有名的水果公司组装，旁边还有一批了不起的中国制造商，华为、OPPO、vivo、一加、小米。整个产业早已聚集在大湾区，而深圳就是它的首府。 Now it's designed in Cupertino, assembled in China by the famous fruit company, alongside incredible Chinese manufacturers, Huawei, Oppo, Vivo, OnePlus, Xiaomi. The whole industry already sits in the Greater Bay Area, with Shenzhen as its capital.

在 AI 的世界里，对设计师来说这是彻底的颠覆，像 Grok Imagine 这样的工具，你只要给一个想法、分享一张草图，就能即时迭代，改这个、换个颜色。这是巨大的速度优势，主要体现在设计阶段。 In the AI world, for designers it's a game changer, tools like Grok Imagine, you just give an idea, share a sketch, and iterate instantly, change this, change the color. It's a huge speed advantage, mostly in the design phase.

但在硬件这一端，真正去排布元器件，我觉得 AI 还没到那个阶段。可在软件上，用 AI 来加速开发，这大概才是眼下最主要的优势，让产品更快推向市场。 On the hardware side, actually placing the components, I don't think AI is at that stage yet. But in software, using AI to speed up development, that's probably the primary advantage now, faster speed to market.

你的职业生涯里做过好几家公司，如今是第三家，叫 Oxtak，如果我念得对的话。你能不能用最朴素的语言，讲讲 Oxtak 是什么，以及你为什么要做它？ You've built multiple ventures over your career, and now you're on your third, called Oxtak, if I pronounce it right. Can you describe, in the plainest words, what Oxtak is and why you built it?

Oxtak 确实是我的第三家公司，但它是我一路做下来的延续。往前倒一点：从手机设计说起，主要是二十年前的飞利浦手机，我做过一些小众的、非常独特的产品。 Oxtak is indeed my third venture, but it's a continuation of everything I've built. Go back a bit: from mobile-phone design, mainly Philips phones twenty years ago, I worked on niche, very unique products.

我参与过 TAG Heuer(泰格豪雅)Meridiist 的设计团队，那是这个隶属于 LVMH 集团的手表品牌做的一款手机。我做过很多手机，等到智能手机出现，也就是 2007 年的 iPhone 时刻，我就搬到了深圳。之后我创办了 Omate，一款直接连入电信网络的智能手表。 I was on the design team for the TAG Heuer Meridiist, a phone from the watch brand under the LVMH group. I built a lot of phones, and when the smartphone arrived, the iPhone moment in 2007, that's when I moved to Shenzhen. Then I created Omate, a smartwatch connected straight to the telecom network.

关键在于，它是一台独立设备，比 Apple Watch 早了两年。它不是挂在你智能手机上的配件，而 Oxtak 遵循的是完全一样的理念。 The key point was that it was a standalone device, two years before the Apple Watch. It wasn't linked to your smartphone as an accessory, and Oxtak follows the exact same philosophy.

我甚至不叫它独立设备，我叫它side device(旁侧设备)，一个在你身边、却真正独立、不与任何东西捆绑的东西。 I don't even call it standalone, I call it a side device, something alongside you but truly independent, not tethered to anything.

你大概见过市面上那些 AI 录音设备。它们大致做三件事：实时翻译、录音、问 AI，而通常这一切都装在你的手机里，要么预装，要么是 App。我的手机本身就有一个很好的录音功能，甚至能做语音转文字和摘要。 You've probably seen the AI recorders out there. They do about three things, live translation, recording, ask-AI, and normally all of that lives inside your phone, built in or as apps. My phone already has a great recorder that can even do speech-to-text and summaries.

后来出现了配件，就是那种贴在手机背面的小卡片，Plaud、Pocket、TicNote。他们把为什么你会想要一台单独设备这件事讲得很好：更方便，而且你的手机不必被录音占用，还能腾出手来。 Then came the accessories, those little cards you stick on the back of your phone, Plaud, Pocket, TicNote. They did a great job explaining why you'd want a separate device: it's more convenient, and your phone stays free instead of being tied up recording.

但问题在于，它其实还是连着的。音频依然得传到你的手机上去处理、存储、生成摘要。翻译设备是这样，连智能眼镜也是这样，音频最终还是流向你的手机。 But here's the thing, it's still linked. The audio still has to be sent to your phone to be processed, stored, and summarized. Same with the translation devices, and the connected glasses, the audio still flows through to your phone.

所以我想要一个真正独立、并且隐私优先的东西。 So I wanted something truly standalone, and privacy-first.

你想想看：此刻这场对话正在被录音，而我根本不知道那段音频存在了哪里，你多半也不知道。对这样一场公开的对话来说，无所谓，你注意自己说什么就行。 Think about it: right now this meeting is being recorded, and I have no real idea where that audio is stored, and neither do you. For a public conversation like this, it doesn't matter, you just watch what you say.

但换成这些小设备的使用场景，那是私下的讨论、团队会议，甚至是战略会议，人们不想再做笔记了。很方便，可那段音频就是一个源头，而有朝一日，它可能被用来对付你。 But with these little devices it's private discussions, team meetings, even strategic meetings, where people don't want to take notes anymore. It's convenient, but that audio is a source, and one day it could be used against you.

我快速解释一下。语音转文字，本身就已经是一层 AI 过滤，音频变成了文字。每一家厂商都会告诉你，它有 95%、也许 96% 的准确率。 Let me explain quickly. Speech-to-text is already an AI filter, audio becomes text. Every vendor will tell you it's ninety-five, maybe ninety-six percent accurate.

可即便它达到 99.99%，你依然可以说，我在会上从没说过那句话。别人会说，得了吧，白纸黑字就在转录稿里。而你可以反问：源头在哪？证据、凭证，是那段音频。 But even when it hits 99.99 percent, you can still say, I never said that in the meeting. People say, come on, it's right there in the transcript. And you can answer: what's the source? The proof, the evidence, is the audio.

所以我们造的是一台独立设备，而且是刻意做成非间谍设备的，我们故意把它做得挺大。它是一种复古未来主义的设计，差不多是一台随身听、或者老款 iPod 的大小，配一块 iPhone 5 尺寸的屏幕、一个 iPhone 5 风格的指纹识别、一个实体按键，还有我们自己的麦克风。 So what we built is a standalone device, and deliberately not a spy device, we made it fairly big on purpose. It's a retro-futuristic design, about the size of a Walkman or an old iPod, with an iPhone-5-size screen, an iPhone-5-style fingerprint scanner, a physical button, and its own microphone.

它做三件事。我给你看看，其实很简单。 It does three things. Let me show you, it's pretty simple.

开完会，你只要按下停止键。转录稿会同步到我们的网页应用，但音频留在设备里，永远不会离开。也就是说，你掌控着那个源头。 When you finish a meeting, you just press the stop button. The transcript goes to our web app, but the audio stays on the device, it never leaves. That means you are in control of the source.

这是我们给用户的第一层安全。第二层是：通过网页应用，你用自己的 API key 来管理你的摘要，你自己的 OpenAI key、Grok、Gemini，我们几乎全都支持。所以我根本无法接触到你的数据。 That's the first layer of security we give users. The second: through the web app, you use your own API key to manage your summaries, your OpenAI key, Grok, Gemini, we support almost all of them. So I have no access to your data at all.

一旦它存在你的手机里，问题就来了，我把它叫作meta 黑手党，就是那一堆 App，Instagram、WhatsApp、Facebook，还有太多其他的，你都授权过它们访问你的数据：你的照片、视频，还有你的音频。人们总是忽略音频这一块。有些 App 声称只在你使用时才收听，可我们大多数人，都让这些 App 一直开着。 When it's stored on your phone, the problem is what I call the meta mafia, all these apps, Instagram, WhatsApp, Facebook, and so many others, that you've granted access to your data: your photos, your videos, and also your audio. People always neglect the audio. Some apps claim they only listen while you use them, but most of us keep these apps always on.

你做一次语音转文字，却根本不知道那段音频到底去了哪。你以为它在某个安全的云端，可很多 App 就把它存在你自己的设备上。哪怕是你五年前下载的那个换脸小游戏，可能也有权限访问你的音频，而他们想拿它做什么都行。 You make a voice-to-text and have no idea where that audio actually goes. You assume it's in some secure cloud, but many apps store it right on your device. Even that little face-swap game you downloaded five years ago might have access to your audio, and they can use it for whatever they want.

你不会希望这样一场会议被泄露出去，而这种事一直在发生，几周前是扎克伯格，几天前是拜登。但它同样会被用来对付普通人。所以说，如果数据是石油，隐私将会成为比石油更珍贵的东西。 You don't want a meeting like this leaked, and it happens all the time, Zuckerberg a few weeks ago, Biden a few days ago. But it gets used against anonymous people too. So if data is oil, privacy is going to be something even more precious than oil.

你觉得随着技术发展，我们正在失去隐私吗？社交媒体和互联网已经让我们失去了很多，它们分析我们的行为、我们的偏好。而现在有了 AI，每次你用 Claude 或 ChatGPT，用户协议的一条就是，你承认你的数据、你的对话可能被用来训练未来的模型。所以你其实已经在交出隐私了。 Do you think we're losing our privacy as technology develops? Social media and the internet already made us lose a lot, they analyze our behavior and our preferences. And now with AI, every time you use Claude or ChatGPT, part of the agreement is that your data and conversations may be used to train future models. So you're already giving up privacy.

某种意义上，我们都成了宝可梦训练师。你觉得未来隐私会走向哪里，当世界的每一个角落都被连接起来，我们说的每一句话都能拿去训练下一个模型，而我们自己，有时候不过是一个测试工具？ We're all Pokémon trainers, in a way. Where do you think privacy goes in the future, when every part of the world is connected, everything we say can train the next model, and we become a kind of testing tool?

这真的要看情况，而且我们常常忽略文化这一层。生活在中国，尤其是深圳，我们其实已经交出了很多隐私，到处都是摄像头。而我们乐在其中，因为它让这座城市极其安全，你可以把手机放在桌上，没人会拿走。 It really depends, and we forget the cultural side. Living in China, especially in Shenzhen, we've basically given up a lot of our privacy, there are cameras everywhere. And we love it, because it makes the city incredibly safe, you can leave your phone on a table and no one will take it.

但接受度是分层次的。有些东西全世界都接受，比如警察的执法记录仪，一直在录，我们都在 X 上看过那种冲突的视频。在中国是这样，在法国也是这样，我们对自己说，这是为了我们的安全。 But there are layers of acceptance. Some things we all accept worldwide, like police body cams, always recording, we've all seen those altercation videos on X. It's the same in China, and in France, and we tell ourselves, this is for our safety.

下一步是机器人，人形机器人和机器狗，它们的眼睛就是摄像头，身上装着十几个甚至更多的麦克风，什么都在录，而我们会看到越来越多。我们接受它，因为它在街上，是为了安全。 The next step is robots, humanoids and robot dogs, their eyes are cameras, with a dozen or more microphones on their body, recording everything, and we'll see more and more. We accept it because it's out in the street, for safety.

再往后，越来越多的人在会议里、采访里、线上用这些录音设备。我们已经习惯了那个弹窗，本次会议正在录制，你可以拒绝，但那样你就像个怪人，像个拒绝一款绝佳生产力工具的人。至少，我们是知道自己正在被录的。 Then more and more people use these recorders, in meetings, in interviews, online. We're used to the pop-up, this meeting is being recorded, and you can decline, but then you look like a weirdo, like someone rejecting a great productivity tool. At least we're aware we're being recorded.

几天前有一家大的中国公司来拜访我们，其中一个人想用一个类似钉钉那种设备来录，就是贴在手机背后的小东西，他问，我可以录这场会吗？我开玩笑说，不行。这其实是我们公司的规定，你录音时应该告诉对方，尤其是客户。然后我又打趣说，没问题，那我也录我这边的。 A few days ago a big Chinese company visited us, and someone asked to record with a device like DingTalk's, the little thing behind the phone, and said, can I record the meeting? As a joke I said no. That's actually our policy, you should tell people, especially customers, when you record. Then I joked, no problem, I'll record mine too.

我们正在交出一部分隐私，而恰恰因为这样，隐私反而变得更重要，因为我们开始把它留给那些我们真正、真正在乎的东西。你不会想把一切都分享出去，有些数据就是绝对不行。 We are giving up part of our privacy, and precisely because of that, privacy grows, because we start reserving it for the things we really, really care about. You don't want to share everything, some data is simply a no-go.

所以我们从企业市场切入。我说的不是你私人生活的隐私，我指的是公司的数据，你不希望它泄露给某个大企业，或者你的竞争对手。 So we start with the enterprise market. I'm not talking about the privacy of your private life, I mean company data you don't want leaking to a big corporation, or to your competitors.

有个例子是 Claude 和 Figma，Figma 用了 Claude，后来出现了一个很相似的服务。如果你在每一场会议里，都不停地分享你的路线图、你的战略、你的定价，那会非常危险。所以我们必须在这个 AI 的世界里找到解法，因为我们终究还是想用这些工具。 There's an example with Claude and Figma, Figma used Claude, and then a similar service appeared. If you're constantly sharing your roadmap, your strategy, your prices in every meeting, that can be very dangerous. So we have to find solutions in the AI world, because we still want to use these tools.

你提到机器人，我其实都不确定，未来五十年里我会不会接受一个机器人进我家。如果一个机器人照顾我的祖父母，身上装着十六个摄像头，把一切都录下来去训练下一个模型，那是对你生活的巨大侵入。 You mentioned robots, I'm not even sure I'd accept a robot in my house in the next fifty years. If a robot takes care of my grandparents with sixteen cameras on its body, recording everything to train the next model, that's a huge intrusion into your life.

所以像你这样一台在本地运行的设备，未来会变得至关重要。公司用 Claude、ChatGPT、Gemini、DeepSeek 来提升效率，可与此同时，他们也在交出自己的隐私。任何一家既想要这些模型、又想要隐私的公司，都需要某种本地设备。你的产品，算是这方面的一个起点吗？ So a device that runs locally, like yours, is going to be critically important. Companies use Claude, ChatGPT, Gemini, DeepSeek to boost productivity, but they're giving away their privacy. Any company that wants both, the models and privacy, needs some kind of local device. Is your product a starting point for that?

我们随时随地都带着手机，而智能手机，基本上就是隐私的特洛伊木马。我们都有过这种经历：你和朋友聊到某个话题，紧接着就刷到相关的广告，可你从没打过那几个字，也没碰过手机。上周又发生了一次，我和我弟弟在聊一部电影，我说我会上 Rotten Tomatoes 看评分。 We carry a phone with us all the time, and the smartphone is basically the Trojan horse of privacy. We've all had this experience, you talk about a topic with friends, and right after you get an ad for it, even though you never typed it or touched your phone. It happened again last week, my brother and I were talking about a movie, and I mentioned I check ratings on Rotten Tomatoes.

那是个我从不用、也没订阅的网站，可就在当天晚上，我收到了 Rotten Tomatoes 频道的 YouTube 通知。也许纯属巧合，但我很怀疑。这也是为什么，当你去海外的大使馆或领事馆时，他们会让你把手机放进一个盒子，那其实就是个小小的法拉第微波炉盒，飞行模式，没有信号。 It's a site I never use and don't subscribe to, and that same night I got a YouTube notification from the Rotten Tomatoes channel. Maybe it's pure coincidence, but I doubt it. That's also why, when you visit an embassy or consulate abroad, they tell you to put your phone in a box, literally a little Faraday microwave-oven box, airplane mode, no signal.

我们几乎正在走向这样一个世界：你干脆默认，你说的任何话都在被录音。我见过有人戴着智能眼镜来开会，说实话，他们看着像怪人。 We're almost coming to a world where you just take it for granted that whatever you say is recorded. I've seen people show up to meetings with connected glasses, and honestly, they look like weirdos.

我自己也有 Meta 眼镜，我把它当工具用，主要是用摄像头，好腾出手来给工程师展示产品。但要我一直戴在脸上？我完全不信这一套。技术是你随身携带的东西，时尚是你穿戴的东西，而眼镜是最糟的，因为它在你脸上。 I have my Meta glasses, I use them as a tool, mainly the camera, to show a product to our engineers hands-free. But wearing them on my face all the time? I don't believe in it at all. Technology is what you carry, fashion is what you wear, and glasses are the worst, because they're on your face.

而现在，他们把 AI 装到一切东西上，眼镜、胸针、戴在手指上的戒指，把你身体的每一个部位都数字化，谁知道接下来还会冒出什么可穿戴设备。感觉我们整个身体，都暴露在隐私流失的风险之下。 And now they're putting AI on everything, glasses, pins, rings on your finger, digitizing every part of your body, and who knows what wearables come next. It feels like our whole body is being exposed to a loss of privacy.

确实有生物特征数据，你的智能戒指、你的智能手表，而人们是懂它的价值的。他们不想让它被卖给保险公司，然后对方说，这家伙快得癌症了，或者他血压很差，涨他的保费吧。那太离谱了。 There is biometric data, your smart ring, your smartwatch, and people do understand its value. They don't want it sold to insurance companies that'll say, this guy is going to get cancer, or he has bad blood pressure, let's raise his price. That's insane.

但我更在意的是你说的话，你的言语。社会在变，有些东西，一个正常人，不必是什么偏激的卫道士，也会说，那在当年是可以接受的，如今不行了。 But I'm more interested in what you say, your speech. Society changes, and there are things a normal person, without being some crazy advocate, would say were once acceptable and now aren't.

当你是公众人物，那就是 YouTube 上你过去的视频和音频。但即便是私下里、普普通通的人，相信我，它也会被用来对付你。所以最好就假设自己随时在被录音，而如果你能掌握它，掌握你说过的话，手握凭证，你就保护了自己，因为有人会泄露转录稿，而你可以说，我掌握着源头，我从没说过那句话。 When you're a public figure, it's old videos and audio on YouTube. But even for private, random people, trust me, it will be used against you. So better to assume you're recorded all the time, and if you can own that, own what you said, with the proof, you protect yourself, because people leak transcripts, and you can say, I own the source, I never said that.

所以你聚焦的是隐私里音频、转录、录音这一块。而随着 AI 的发展，我们开始看到一些创业公司走向相反的方向，不是用 AI 让生活更好，而是做一个反 AI、回到旧世界的产品，而人们反而更看重这个。我采访过一家在招聘领域这么做的公司，想用更传统的软件去取代 AI 招聘。而你做的是传统硬件，一台老派的、本地化的录音机。你觉得随着 AI 越来越强、越来越深入我们的生活，这些更老的产品会不会重新变得重要起来？ So you're focused on the audio, transcription, recording side of privacy. And with AI, we're starting to see startups go the opposite direction, instead of using AI to improve life, they build products that push back against it and go back to the old world, and people value that. I interviewed a company doing it in recruitment, replacing AI recruiting with more traditional software. You're doing traditional hardware, an old-fashioned local recorder. Do you think as AI grows, some of these older products become important again?

会。我非常拥护机器人，这是我一辈子的梦想，我想活在一个有机器人的世界里。但眼下我们只有一件工具，我们叫它手机、智能手机、iPhone，而过去二十年，它基本上是同一个东西。 Yes. I'm very pro-robot, it's been a lifelong dream, I want to live in a world with robots. But right now we have one tool, we call it a phone, a smartphone, an iPhone, and for the last twenty years it's basically been the same thing.

你打开手机，看到的是密密麻麻的彩色小图标。它是个很棒的工具，是你的相机，对我来说更像微信，一个通讯器。但我们已经到了一个饱和点，这也是为什么各大科技公司，先是苹果，然后是三星、Meta，都在拼命寻找下一个东西。 You open your phone and see all these little colored icons. It's a great tool, it's your camera, for me it's more like WeChat, a communicator. But we've reached a point of saturation, which is why big tech, Apple first, then Samsung, Meta, keep hunting for what's next.

扎克伯格陷得很深，他尝试了 AR、VR 的世界，XR，但说实话，失败了。没有人想活在这样一个世界里，我们本来就已经在和孩子较劲、让他们别一直刷抖音了，更别提那种更反乌托邦的版本，戴着头盔、瘫在沙发上，像个僵尸。 Zuckerberg is deep into it, he tried the AR and VR world, XR, but honestly it failed. No one wants to live in a world where we're already fighting our kids to stop scrolling TikTok, let alone a dystopian version with a helmet on, slumped on the sofa like a zombie.

让大脑把一台设备看成一件清清楚楚的东西，这对人脑其实是好的。这也是为什么人们还在买手表，机械自动表，我自己也设计手表，那是我另一门生意，Omate。这一款是给老年人做的简单智能手表，你按一个键，它就把你接通到一个专业服务。对用户来说，它就是一块表，而人们，想回到简单的东西上去。 It's just good for the human brain to see a device as one clear thing. That's why people still buy watches, automatic watches, I design watches myself, that's my other business, Omate. This one is a simple smartwatch for seniors, you press a button and it connects you to a professional service. To the user, it's just a watch, and people want to go back to simple things.

我在一个朋友做的 Sidephone 上看到了这一点，它在精神内核上和我们做的东西很像。 I saw it with a friend's Sidephone, it's similar in spirit to what we do.

而它有点像你在做的东西，一个配件，一个在你现有手机旁边、额外多出来的东西，对吧？ And it's kind of similar to what you're building, an accessory, something extra that goes alongside your current phone, right?

不是配件，这一点很重要。我做的每一样东西，都尽可能不与手机捆绑。我认识 Sidephone 的 CEO Chris 时，他说服我去设计他们的硬件，而那和 Oxtak 是同一个理念，甚至就写在名字里，Sidephone(旁侧手机)。它是一台完整的安卓智能手机，但配了 QWERTY 全键盘，还有可以嵌进去的实体贴片，音乐贴片、游戏贴片，于是它变得像一台 iPod。我甚至给它设了一张诺基亚风格的壁纸。你一眼看到它，就明白它不是用来取代你 iPhone 的。 Not an accessory, that's the important part. Everything I do is not linked to the phone, as much as possible. When I met Chris, the CEO of Sidephone, he convinced me to design their hardware, and it was the same idea as Oxtak, it's even in the name, Sidephone. It's a full Android smartphone, but with a QWERTY keyboard and physical tiles you can embed, a music tile, a gaming tile, so it becomes like an iPod. I even put a Nokia-style wallpaper on it. The moment you see it, you understand it's not meant to replace your iPhone.

它是那种直板的、诺基亚式的形态，而那些贴片非常受欢迎，人们在 Reddit 上很喜欢它们。作为硬件设计师，这一切都是我们设计的，我的工作室一年只接一个这样的外部项目。 It's a candy-bar, Nokia form factor, and those tiles are hugely popular, people love them on Reddit. As a hardware designer, we design all of that, my studio does one external project like this a year.

它一下子就打动了我，因为背后是同一套理念：我们生活在一个 AI 将改变很多东西的世界里，可我们随时都带着这台手机，而我们对这一堆 App 已经产生了疲劳，我们上瘾了。你试试把 iPhone 从任何人手里拿走，非常难。所以我很喜欢看到有人去尝试新东西，或者往回走，而往回走，并不等于倒退。 It clicked immediately, because it's the same philosophy: we live in a world where AI will change a lot, but we have this phone with us all the time, and we're getting a fatigue from all these apps, we're addicted. Try taking an iPhone away from anyone, it's very hard. So I love seeing people try new things, or go back, and going back isn't going backwards.

它是直板形态，就像我二十年前设计的飞利浦手机，带 T9 数字键盘，任何 35 岁、40 岁以下的人，都从没见过，因为 iPhone 到现在快二十年了。这不是说过去要回来，而是一种复古未来主义的想法，带点怀旧，回到那个我们手里只有一台 iPod、设备上只有音乐的年代。那对大脑是好的，它让你更平静、更有创造力。我相信，我们正处在这样一个时刻。 It's a candy-bar form factor, like the Philips phones I designed twenty years ago, with a T9 numeric keypad, that anyone under thirty-five or forty has literally never seen, because the iPhone is almost twenty years old now. It's not that the past is coming back, it's a retro-futurist idea, some nostalgia, going back to a time when we just had an iPod, just music on a device. That was good for the brain, it made you calmer, more creative. I believe we're in that kind of moment.

你在做一家保护人们隐私的公司。你觉得未来隐私的责任在谁身上，是用户自己、是公司、还是政府？随着 AI 和各种技术发展得这么快，法律和监管很难跟上它的步伐。你觉得这份责任，落在谁头上？ You're building a company to protect people's privacy. Whose responsibility is privacy in the future, the user, the company, or the government? With AI and every technology moving so fast, laws and regulation struggle to keep up. Where do you think the responsibility falls?

责任永远是你自己的，谁都别信。这其实是我们的一条格言，谁都别信。当然更不是你的政府，因为如果他们能知道关于你的一切，他们一定会。 Your responsibility is always your own, don't trust anyone. That's actually one of our mottos, trust no one. It's definitely not your government, because if they could know everything about you, they would.

所以你要保护自己，但也要保护你的头脑、你的心智。手机很好，但它做的事情太多了，需要的时候把手机当工具用，同时用一些你信得过的、别的设备，那些让你的大脑用起来毫不费力的设备。 So you protect yourself, but also protect your mind, your intellect. Phones are great, but they do too many things, use the phone as a tool when you need it, and use other devices you can trust, ones that are easy for your brain to operate.

把一台音乐设备就当成一台音乐设备。我现在还在一台一 TB 存储的手机里存 MP3，一大堆当年的老音乐。任何没有通知的东西，或者开着飞行模式的东西，都是好的，因为有一股断连的潮流，而断连是好事，能把你从我们身处的这个 AI 世界里暂时抽离出来。 See a music device as just a music device. I still keep MP3s on a phone with a terabyte of storage, tons of music from back in the day. Anything without notifications, or on airplane mode, is good, because there's a trend of disconnection, and disconnecting is good, to separate yourself from this AI world we live in.

当你用手机录音时，你还是会收到各种弹窗，你下滑去看一眼，然后突然就在聊天、在接电话了，那就是干扰。所以把当下真正重要的事情分离出来，是好的。隐私不只是保护未来那个也许有点疑神疑鬼的自己，它也是在保护你，免受干扰，免受这一切通知的打扰。 When you record from your phone, you still get all the pop-ups, you slide down to check, and suddenly you're chatting or taking a call, that's distraction. So separating the things that matter in the moment is good. Privacy isn't only about protecting some paranoid future version of yourself, it's also about protecting you from distraction, from all these notifications.

这也是为什么在 Oxtak 上我们只专注三个功能。一个是实时翻译，日本人特别喜欢，多个人用不同语言说话，你能跟上整场对话。这在我们手机上也有，但作为一台你信得过的独立设备，它不会把你手机的电耗光。另一个是给会议用的 AI 录音。 That's why on Oxtak we focus on three features. One is live translation, which the Japanese love, multiple people speaking different languages and you can follow the whole conversation. It's on our phones too, but as a separate device you can trust, it isn't killing your phone's battery. And there's AI recording for your meetings.

你看一眼这台设备，立刻就知道它是干什么的。而你的手机呢，是一把瑞士军刀，三十个、五十个 App，是我的电视遥控器、我的闹钟、我的相机，每个人都能对上号，可功能实在太多了。 You look at the device and instantly know what it is. Your phone, on the other hand, is a Swiss army knife, thirty, fifty apps, my remote control, my alarm clock, my camera, everyone relates to it, but there are just too many functions.

那么，说到技术改变人们的生活，你的意思是，当人们开始用 Sidephone 或者你的产品时，他们可能会意识到，从数字世界里抽离出来是有价值的，既是一种心理上的重置，也是为了保护隐私。你觉得人们是通过产品意识到这一点，还是只能随着技术发展慢慢意识到，因为现在大多数人还不明白？ So, on technology changing people's lives, you're saying that when people start using a Sidephone or your product, they might realize the value of disconnecting from the digital world, both as a mental reset and to protect their privacy. Do you think people realize that through the product, or only slowly as technology develops, because most people don't understand it yet?

其实不是要断连，那不可能，你很难真的拔掉插头，而且我觉得也不该这么做，我们就活在这个世界里。它只是让你脑子里的某样东西重置一下。这台独立设备只做几个功能，而这些功能，是足够的。 It's not really about disconnecting, that's impossible, it's very hard to pull the plug, and I don't think we should, we live in this world. It's just to reset something in your brain. This standalone device works on a few features, and those features are fine.

我自己是拿它来听 Spotify 的，配一副专用耳机。做饭的时候，或者在家打电话的时候，我就用它听播客，我知道这是我的播客设备，没有别的通知，没有人会打进来。这只是一种心态，它把我带回到 iPod 的年代。 I use mine with Spotify, with dedicated earbuds. When I cook, or take calls at home, I just listen to a podcast on it, and I know it's my podcast device, no other notifications, no one will call me. It's just a mindset, and it takes me back to the iPod days.

还记得那个 iPhone 时刻吗。乔布斯预告了三款产品，一台 iPod、一部电话、一个上网通讯器，他说了三遍，然后揭晓，它们其实是同一台设备。三个概念，因为你的大脑能处理一、二、三，这对大脑是友好的。 Remember the iPhone moment. Steve Jobs teased three products, an iPod, a phone, an internet communicator, he said it three times, and then revealed they were all one device. Three ideas, because your brain can compute one, two, three, that's good for the brain.

那时候 Facebook 才刚刚起步，Instagram、Uber 都还不存在。今天，一部手机能做的事没完没了，而有了 AI 更是变本加厉，无穷无尽的知识。但 AI 好的一点，尤其是配上智能体，是它能把你重新拉回到一个功能、一个你随时可以呼叫的智能体。 At that time Facebook was barely starting, Instagram and Uber didn't exist. Today a phone does endless things, and with AI it's even worse, unlimited knowledge. But what's good about AI, especially with agents, is that it can reset you back to one function, one agent you can call anytime.

我们会在 CES 上宣布，我们的 Oxtak 硬件将和一个 AI 伙伴合作，在上面装进智能体，像三个同事一样。你给每一个分配它能访问的不同数据，因为在一家公司里，光靠你自己，其实管不过来二三十个人以上。 We'll announce at CES that with our Oxtak hardware we're teaming up with an AI partner to put agents on it, like three colleagues. You give each one access to different data that you own, because in a company you can't really manage more than twenty or thirty people yourself.

于是一个智能体是你的 CMO，掌管所有市场的事，一个是你的 CFO，管财务，你的 CTO 管技术那一摊，而你真的可以像和真同事一样跟他们交谈，很快，语音转文字再转回语音。它带来一种人性化的感觉，但每一个都只能接触到一部分，而不是全部。 So one agent is your CMO, with all the marketing, one is your CFO, with the finance, your CTO with the technical side, and you actually talk to them like real colleagues, fast, speech to text and back. It brings a human quality, but each one only has access to a part, not everything.

这是我的另一个理论：我不想要一个能接触一切的超级智能，我想要分舱隔离。让你的大脑清楚地知道 Katie 是 CMO、John 是 CTO，这对大脑是好的。而如果某个智能体被攻破了，或者表现不好，你就把它开掉，重置模型，换上另一个。 That's my other theory: I don't want one super-intelligence with access to everything, I want to compartmentalize. It's good for your brain to know Katie is the CMO, John is the CTO. And if one agent is compromised or underperforming, you just fire it, reset the model, and bring in another.

这就是我们正在做的，全部跑在专用硬件上，而不是你的手机上，我承认这很难，因为手机是我们生活里最重要的那台设备。 That's what we're working on, all on dedicated hardware, not your phone, which I admit is hard, because the phone is the most important device in our lives.

你觉得，十年之后，如果你的产品运转得非常好，隐私保护也真的迎来一波热潮，那时候，一个普通人和自己数据的关系，会是什么样子？ Do you think, ten years from now, if your product works really well and there's a real boom in privacy protection, what does a normal person's relationship with their data look like?

2007 年的时候，人们就在问十年后会是什么样，结果到了 2017 年，还是一部 iPhone，没什么两样。而从现在起再过十年，说实话，我觉得会有很多机器人，尽管我不相信它们那时候就已经进到我们家里了。 Back in 2007 people asked what ten years out would look like, and in 2017 it was still just an iPhone, same thing. Ten years from now, honestly, I think there will be a lot of robots, though I don't believe they'll already be inside our homes.

至于我们的数据，我们当中一些人会尽全力去保护那些关键的、战略性的部分，这也是为什么我们从企业市场做起，那里风险更高，无手机的会议、数据记录在本地、存在你自己的服务器上。这挡不住政府来查封你的服务器，但它能加上一层层的安全。 As for our data, some of us will do our best to protect the critical, strategic stuff, which is why we start with enterprise, where there's more at stake, no-phone meetings, data recorded on-premise, on your own server. It won't stop a government from seizing your server, but it adds layers of security.

十年之内，会有各种不同的形态，折叠屏之类的，但也会有更多的旁侧设备。而我相信，会有越来越多的人开始理解那些他们真正信得过的旁侧设备，那些大脑一看就懂的设备，独立设备会比那些拴在你智能手机上的东西更多。 In ten years there will be different form factors, folding phones and more, but also more side devices. And I believe more people will come to understand side devices they can actually trust, ones the brain easily understands, more standalone devices than things tethered to your smartphone.

最后一个问题，更像是一个你可以给正在收听的听众的建议。对于一个觉得自己已经失去了对数据的掌控、或者害怕自己会失去掌控的人，你会告诉他立刻去做哪一件事，来解决、或者至少缓解这个问题？ Final question, more of a suggestion you can give to the audience listening. What would you tell someone who feels they've lost control of their data, or is afraid they will, one thing to do immediately that can overcome, or at least mitigate, the problem?

这就像你的产品收到一条差评。一条差评也是评价，但处理它的办法是把它盖过去，我们常说，你需要十条好评去盖住一条差评，而这真的有用。所以如果你的数据泄露了，就去盖过它，用新的、更正面的内容。 It's like getting a bad review for a product. One bad review is still a review, but the way to handle it is to cover it, we say you need ten more positive ones to cover a bad one, and it actually works. So if your data leaks, cover it, with new, more positive content.

一次泄露，通常会让你觉得可能会伤害到你的生活，所以答案就是把事情做得更好，让下一次泄露，是一次正面的泄露。这真的是唯一的办法。除此之外，就是，说话小心一点。 A leak usually feels like it could hurt your life, so the answer is to improve things, make the next leak a positive one. That's really the only way. And beyond that, just be careful what you say.

我不相信我们今天聊的这些，将来会被用来对付我们中的任何一个。走着瞧吧，也许十年后有人看到这段，会说，他们当年说对了。也希望到那时候 Oxtak 已经很有名了，我们现在才刚满一岁。 I don't believe what we discussed today will be used against either of us. Let's see, maybe someone watches this ten years from now and says, they were right. And hopefully by then Oxtak is famous, we're only one year old.

我真心希望你的技术，能改变人们看待隐私和数据的方式。非常感谢你来上节目，这是一个真正有意思的趋势，人们在用这样的方式，去对抗 AI 带来的负面影响。祝 Oxtak 一切顺利。 I really do hope your technology can change people's perspective on privacy and data. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, it's a genuinely interesting trend, people pushing back against the negative side of AI. Best of luck with Oxtak.