给气候风险一个数字 A Number for Climate Risk

每一家改变世界的公司，起点都是一样的，不是一条头条新闻，也不是十亿美元的估值。 Every world-changing company starts the same way — not as a headline, not as a billion-dollar valuation.

而是一个雏形：一个由“对这个问题念念不忘的人”做出来的粗糙初版。 It's a prototype: a rough first version built by someone who couldn't stop thinking about the problem.

这档节目要找的，正是那些还在埋头打造产品的人，AI、机器人 This is the show that finds those people while they're still building — founders in AI, robotics,

和硬科技领域的创始人，太平洋两岸，从硅谷到深圳， and frontier tech, on both sides of the Pacific, from Silicon Valley to Shenzhen,

以及一切未来正在被亲手拼装出来的地方。我是 Gavin。 and everywhere the future is being put together by hand. My name is Gavin.

这里是《Prototype（雏形）》。先给你一个应该让你害怕的数字。 This is Prototype. Here is a number that should scare you.

一项被广泛引用的研究估算，全球有多达 24 万亿美元的金融资产，正暴露在气候变化的风险之下。 One widely cited study put the value of global financial assets at risk of climate change at up to $24 trillion.

24 万亿美元，比整个美国的经济体量还要大，而它就潜伏在普通人的养老金和存款里。 $24 trillion — that is more than the entire economy of the United States, sitting exposed inside the pensions and savings of ordinary people.

而持有这些钱的投资者，大多数其实看不见自己正背负着多大的风险。 And most of the investors holding that money cannot actually see the risk they're carrying.

想想气候会对一个经济体做些什么：一座被洪水淹没的工厂， Think about what climate does to a single economy: a factory that floods,

一条在热浪中断裂的供应链，一处周一还值几十亿美元的石油储备， a supply chain that snaps in a heat wave, an oil reserve worth billions on Monday,

到了周五却一文不值。这些已经不再只是环境问题了。它们是金融问题，会在真实的人、真实的投资组合里，抹掉真金白银。 but worthless by Friday. These are not environmental problems anymore. They are financial ones, and they erase real money in real portfolios belonging to real people.

但奇怪的是：关于一家公司，投资者几乎什么都能精确到小数点后一位去衡量。 But here is the strange part. Investors can measure almost everything else about a company down to the decimal.

它的负债、盈利、现金流。可你要是问，这家公司对一个更热、更不稳定的星球暴露有多深，大多数人只能靠猜。 Its debts, its earnings, its cash flow. Ask how exposed that company is to a hotter, less stable planet, and most of them are just guessing.

我的这位嘉宾，此前在一家资本公司，靠人力去填补这道鸿沟，一家公司一家公司地量化气候风险。 My guest previously spent her time in a capital firm trying to close that gap by hand, quantifying climate risk one company at a time.

但她走出来时，笃定了一件事：这个问题太大了，靠人力根本做不完。 But she came out certain of one thing: that this problem is too big to do by hand.

于是她开始打造一个能做到的东西：一个 AI，把“气候风险”这样又模糊、又吓人的东西，变成一个实实在在的数字。 So she's building the thing that can. An AI that turns something as vague, as frightening, as climate risk into an actual number.

一个投资组合经理可以拿在手里、可以比较、可以据以行动的数字。因为你无法管理你无法衡量的东西。 One a portfolio manager can hold, compare, and act on. Because you cannot manage what you cannot measure.

而对于一个以万亿计的风险，我们才刚刚起步。 And for a risk measured in the trillions, we have barely started.

这位是 Linda Wu，SustainAlpha 的创始人，她想给未来标上一个价格。 This is Linda Wu, the founder of SustainAlpha, and she wants to put a price on the future.

大家好，我是 Linda，SustainAlpha 的联合创始人兼 CEO。我做这件事，是因为在更早的那些年里，我一直在下意识地收集可持续领域里的种种痛点，不只是金融，还有信息披露。 Hi everyone, I am Linda, the co-founder and CEO of SustainAlpha. And I'm building this because, throughout my earlier years, I was subconsciously collecting the pain points in sustainability — not just finance, but reporting.

这也是我当初选择攻读可持续与绿色金融理学学士的原因。 And that's also the reason I chose my Bachelor of Science in sustainable and green finance.

而从小到大，我从高中起就一直因为兴趣在写程序。 And growing up, I've been a programmer by interest since high school.

就这样，我组建团队，队伍越来越大。这就是今天的我们。 So, building my team, it got bigger and bigger. And this is us today.

对于一个从没听过“可持续金融”、从没听过这些术语的人，你会怎么向他描述 SustainAlpha？ How would you describe SustainAlpha to someone who has never heard of, you know, sustainable finance, who's never heard of these terms?

你会怎么讲给他们听？ And how would you describe it to them?

好。我们做的，是量化风险，并为投资给出资产层面的建议。所以任何人来投资，它都能帮你的钱增值。 Yes. So we quantify risk and give asset suggestions for investing. So anyone invests, and it helps your money grow.

它的核心是风险管理。这才是“可持续”的本质。它并不是关于气候、也不是关于 ESG。 It's about risk management. That's sustainability. It's not about climate or ESG.

它真正关乎的，是风险管理，是把上行风险和下行风险都掌控在手里，从而让你的钱增值，或者把损失降到最低。 It's really about risk management, about taking control of the upside and downside risks, and being able to grow your money or mitigate losses.

那这主要是针对股票吗？其实不只是股票。我们也和私募市场打交道，那是可持续金融、乃至单纯的募资都非常需要的一大块。 And is this mainly for stocks? Not just stocks, actually. We work with private markets, which is a big area needed for sustainable finance, and also just for fundraising.

所以是的，我们和私募市场合作，而其中数据这一块极其重要。 And so, yes, we work with private markets, and the data part is really important.

我们也确保，和合作伙伴之间的一切都严格保密。 And we make sure everything stays confidential with the partners we work with.

很好。而在我们的播客里，我们总是从一家创业公司要解决的问题说起。 Nice. And on our podcast, we always start with the problem a startup is solving.

因为如果一家创业公司解决不了任何问题，它多半是撑不下去的。 Because if a startup doesn't solve a problem, it's probably not going to sustain itself.

所以我们就从这里开始：你要解决的那个更大的问题，究竟是什么？ So we should start with: what exactly is the bigger problem you're solving?

请给我们讲讲它背后的来龙去脉。 Give us the context behind that.

好。谢谢你，Gavin。我之所以做这件事，是因为这类“外部风险”，一直被低估了。 Yes. Thanks, Gavin. So the reason I'm doing this is that these kinds of external risks are undervalued.

它们很重要。它们是一家公司的一部分，也是一个国家的一部分。 They are important. They're part of a company. They're part of a country.

各种体系都必须把它们考虑进去。而一个风险一旦变大，就会像雪球一样越滚越大。 Systems need to account for them. And once a risk gets bigger, it snowballs.

而这些最终会变成损失。比如一座你必须关停的电厂，那是要花钱的； And these can become losses. So take a power plant that you need to retire, which costs money;

又或者一场山火，逼停了苹果在加州的运营。 or wildfires that force Apple's operations in California to shut down.

短期内，这会造成股价的损失。而如果你是投资者，它就会径直渗透进你的投资组合里。 In the short term, that causes losses in the stock price. And if you're an investor, that seeps right into your portfolio.

而这，恰恰是一个极难被量化、极难被纳入一个本就高度系统化的东西里的领域，那个东西就是金融。 And this is an area that's really hard to quantify and fold into something already systemic, which is finance.

所以我们做的，是运行一个多维度的模型，把这一切都纳进来，再替我们的合作伙伴把它讲清楚。 And so what we do is run a multi-dimensional model that takes everything in and makes sense of it for our partners.

而你们瞄准的，具体就是可持续性、以及环境问题，是它们如何牵动一个投资者名下的全部资产持仓，大体是这样吧。 And you're specifically targeting sustainability and environmental issues as they relate to all of an investor's asset holdings, basically.

是的。所以面向任何人，无论是客户顾问还是投资组合经理，我们在给出资产建议的同时，也帮他们做管理层沟通，以及投资组合层面的顾问。 Yes. So for anyone — client advisory or portfolio managers — we help with management engagement and portfolio advisory, alongside the asset suggestions.

但这里最关键的，是把一件事讲明白：这就是风险。 But the main thing here is communicating that this is risk.

而正因如此，甚至不需要我们主动开口， Which is the reason why, without our even needing to say so,

就有很多私募市场的公司主动想和我们合作， a lot of private-market companies want to work with us —

这也是我们后来开始向那个方向扩张的原因。 which is why we began expanding in that area.

我明白了。而这非常重要，因为随着气候问题的加剧，尤其是进入本世纪以来， I see. And it's really important, because with the rise of climate issues, especially starting this century,

越来越多的公司，正在把自己的资产和金融持仓撤出，所谓的 more and more companies are pulling their assets and financial holdings out of, you know,

“可持续”基金。我查过资料，数据显示，如今标普 500 里有 84% 的公司，已经把气候列为一项财务风险。 quote-unquote sustainable funds. I've researched this, and the data shows 84% of S&P 500 companies now name climate as a financial risk.

这不只是一个故事、一套说辞。是实实在在的 CFO（首席财务官），不只是环保人士， It's not just a story, not just a narrative. It's actual CFOs — not just activists,

而是实实在在的公司，正在把资产撤出那些可能，怎么说呢， but actual companies — pulling their assets out of funds that might be, you know,

在气候之类问题上有风险的基金。 risky when it comes to things like climate.

是的。而这背后的原因，还是政治，还是压力。但另一面是，监管也在不断收紧。 Yeah. And the reason for this is, again, politics and pressure. But the other side is that there's increasing regulation.

市场里的风险也在增加，比如台风扰乱股市，或者打乱企业的日常运营。 There are increasing risks in the market — typhoons disrupting stock markets, or day-to-day operations.

而且，Lisa Sachs，哥伦比亚大学可持续投资中心的负责人，她也谈到过这一点。 And, again — Lisa Sachs, of Columbia's Center on Sustainable Investment, she also mentions this.

所以这确实，没错，是政治性的，是地缘政治层面的。但从根本上看，其实还挺有意思的， So it's something that, yes, it is political. It's geopolitical. But fundamentally — and it's actually quite funny —

我关注了很多大机构，不只是资产管理公司，还有银行以及它们的持仓。 I follow a lot of the big players — not just asset managers, but banks and their holdings.

所以“撤出”，是写在它们 2025 年最新的信息披露、公开公告里的说法。 So "pulling out" is what's written in their 2025 latest disclosures, their public announcements.

但如果你去看它们实际的基金，去看它们在尽责管理上的作为， But if you look at their actual funds, and at what they're doing in terms of stewardship —

也就是与管理层的沟通、以及底层的持仓，你会发现它们其实在加大这方面的投入，在推动公司做出改变。 that is, management engagement and their underlying holdings — they're actually increasing their engagement in this area and pushing companies to change.

这很有意思，因为我记得在 2020 年代初，“环境、社会与治理”这个词曾经特别火，也就是我们说的 ESG，对吧？ That's really interesting, because I remember back in the early 2020s, the term "environmental, social, and governance" got really popular — what we call ESG, right?

我觉得那部分是出于对环境价值观的信念。 And I think it was partly about a belief in environmental values.

很多年轻投资者和金融机构，都想让自己的钱体现出自己的价值观，去保护环境。 A lot of young investors and financial institutions wanted to reflect their values, to protect the environment.

而且那时候利率非常低，所以投资可持续产业这类东西，其实是很划算的。 And interest rates at that point were just really low, so it actually made a lot of sense to invest in things like the sustainability industry.

但现在我觉得风向变了。人们在撤出 ESG 基金，而且如果我没记错，人们已经不再相信那个词了。 But now I think there's a shift. People are pulling out of ESG funds, and people have stopped believing in that term, if I remember correctly.

你说得对。问题出在这个词本身。如今在金融界，我想在全世界的金融界和政界也一样，大多数人改用“可持续性”，或者“路径”这样的说法。 You're right. So it is the term itself. Now, actually, in finance — and I guess worldwide, in finance and politics — most people say "sustainability" or "pathways."

所以现在术语很多。而 ESG，已经成了一个早已过时的标签。 So there are a lot of terms now. And ESG became a long-gone label.

但有意思的是，它其实依然是被需要的，我想这也正是为什么， But it's really interesting that, yeah, it's still needed — which is why, I guess,

各个国家和政府，最终还是绕回到“可持续”或者“风险管理”这套东西上。 countries and governments keep coming back to this idea of sustainability, or risk management.

因为，还是那句话，是有人因此丧命的，飓风也越来越多。 Because, again — there are lives lost, there are more hurricanes.

所以没错，它是个讳莫如深的话题。但从根本上说，它是一项极其重要的底层工作。 And so, yeah, it's a taboo topic. But fundamentally, it's a really important piece of underlying work.

我明白了。那么我对整个大局的理解是：随着气候风险不断上升，而气候风险又会带来财务风险， I see. So the way I'd interpret the bigger picture is: with the growing risk of climate, a climate risk that leads to financial risk,

这就让你们的产品，成为金融行业未来极其关键的一环，因为它专门去剖析这个问题， this makes your product a really critical piece of the financial industry's future, because it specifically analyzes this problem —

把它量化，并让投资组合经理每天都能拿到这些信息。 quantifying it and giving portfolio managers access to that information on a daily basis.

没错。那我们来聊聊你打造它的故事吧。在这之前，如果我没记错，你曾在一家资本公司量化气候风险，涉及不同的信用债、股票和利率。 Right. So let's talk about the story of how you built this. Before this, you spent time quantifying climate risk in a capital firm, if I'm correct, across different credits, equities, and rates.

你最初，是怎么走到金融和气候这个交叉口上来的？ How did you first end up, at the very beginning, at the intersection of finance and climate?

你在访谈前面其实也稍微提到过一点。 You touched on this a little earlier in the interview, too.

好。我该从哪儿说起呢？让我想想。它就是这样一点点越滚越大的。 Yeah. How should I begin? So, let's see. It just kept getting bigger and bigger.

还是那句话，就像我之前说的，我对编程感兴趣，同时也真正关心这个领域。 So, again, like I mentioned earlier, I was interested in programming, and I cared about this area.

并没有某一个瞬间点燃了它，但我只记得， There wasn't a single moment that sparked it, but I just remember,

是小时候一天天长大，亲眼看着周围的环境在变。 it was growing up as a kid and seeing the change in the environment.

就拿澳门来说，我上五年级的时候，那些污水还是绿色的，而且水一直在流。 So, in Macau — when I was in grade five, the sewage water was green, and there was always water flowing.

可大概过了四五年，它就变黑了，而且不管什么天气，总是干涸的。 And then within, like, four or five years, it turned black, and it was always dry, no matter the weather.

那种变化，看着实在让人震惊。于是我开始积累技能、去搜集足够的信息，你也会在新闻里读到这些，对吧？ And it was just shocking to see. So I started gathering skills and enough information about it — you read things in the news, right?

然后，在我把底层模型的雏形搞出来之后，我把我的联合创始人拉了进来。 And so I pulled in my co-founder, after I'd figured out a prototype of the fundamental model.

当时根本没有前端，就只有我一个人，在我的 VS Code 上敲。 There wasn't any front-end — it was just me on my, like, VS Code.

哦，原来如此。 Oh, okay.

对，对，对。就这样它越做越大，我们拿到了资金，得到了香港科技园（HKSTP）的支持，从最早的孵化阶段开始，团队也慢慢壮大起来。 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it got bigger, we got funded, we're backed by HKSTP, ideation at the beginning, and the team grew.

是的。而在你创办这家公司之前，你是在一家金融机构工作，为气候基金、或者说气候投资去量化风险，对吗？ Yeah. And before you built the company, you were working in a financial institution, quantifying risk for climate funds, or for climate investments, right?

是的。我之前的工作，就包括量化风险，不过也不只是风险。 Yes. So my previous roles involved quantifying risk — not just risk, though.

还包括和投资组合经理、投资团队一起工作，做各种各样的模型，为金融领域做数据分析和研究。 It was working with portfolio managers and investment teams, on all kinds of models, and doing data analytics and research for the financial field.

而且，一家公司在 ESG 上的表现， And there's actually a correlation between how a company performs on its ESG —

我应该说“可持续性”，它的可持续性表现和它的回报之间，其实是存在相关性的。 I should say sustainability — between its sustainability and its returns.

哦，有意思。所以在更宏观的层面，你观察到了一种相关性。 Oh, interesting. So on a bigger level, there's a correlation that you observed.

对，那是我和 Traders@UST 一起做的一篇研究论文。它是一个学生社团。 Yeah, it was a research paper I did with Traders@UST. It's a society.

好的。 Okay.

那还是我大一的时候，是啊，已经是很久以前了。 And that was back in my first year — yeah, that was a long time ago.

哦，那挺有意思。所以并不是说，有某一个瞬间、某一个火花，让你毅然辞掉工作。 Oh, that's interesting. So it wasn't like there was a single moment or a spark that made you walk away from your job.

而是一个循序渐进的过程，你先是开始做原型，最后才慢慢意识到，哦， It was a gradual thing, where you started prototyping and eventually saw, oh,

这说不定真能做成一件了不起的事。然后你才逐渐决定组建团队，一步步走到今天这个阶段，对吧？ this might actually turn out to be amazing. And then you gradually decided to build a team, and ended up at this stage, right?

对。所以它从来都不是真正意义上的“离开”。我把它看作是和他们“并肩合作”，因为这个领域，还是那句话， Right. So it was never really a "walking away." I see it as partnering with them, because this area — again —

是在解决一个非常庞大、非常棘手的问题，一个所有人都在拼命想解决的问题， is solving a really big problem that's hard to solve, one that everyone is trying really hard to tackle —

从银行、资产管理公司，到更小的机构和个人投资者，都是如此。 yeah, from the banks, the asset managers, to smaller firms and individual investors.

我确实把每一个人，都看作是这场共同努力的一部分。 And I see everyone as part of a combined effort, definitely.

我明白了。那么，是不是可以这样说，用一种方式来概括：SustainAlpha 基本上，就是在把你上一份工作里做的事情自动化？ I see. And so, is it fair to say — to summarize it in a way — that SustainAlpha is basically automating the work you were doing in your previous job?

这是个很好的问题。我信奉的是 AI 增强，是“增强型 AI”。 That's a great question. So I believe in AI augmentation, in augmented AI.

而这正是我们所提供的。你得明白：没错， And that's what we offer. And you have to understand: yes,

要搭一个模型、或者要用好 AI，你必须清楚你的输入、你的输出，以及具体怎么做， to build a model, or to work with AI, you have to know your inputs, your outputs, and how to do it —

而且你必须非常深入地了解这个行业，或者你正在解决的那个问题。 and you need to understand the industry, or the problem you're solving, really well.

没错，但我们的产品是“增强型 AI”。所以到头来，仍然需要有和客户之间真实的互动，对吧？ Right, but our product is augmented AI. So, in the end, there still needs to be client engagement, right?

需要有像我们这样活生生的人，真正地彼此交谈。 There needs to be someone like us, actually speaking to each other.

我想看到的是你，Gavin。我不想看到一个其实并不存在的 AI，哪怕它看起来像个真人。 I want to see you, Gavin. I don't want to see an AI that doesn't really exist, even if it looks like a human being.

没错。 Right.

我也想要那种“被连接”的感觉。 And I want to feel connected.

所以你们的产品里，也保留了“人”的部分。你能够和你的客户建立真实的联系。 So there's also a human element within your product. You get to connect with your clients.

是的。所以它会就“管理层沟通”给出建议。在给出资产配置建议的同时，它也支撑着这一块。 Yes. So it advises on management engagement. It supports that, alongside the asset allocation suggestions.

而在我看来，还是那句话，整个工作流其实非常简单。 And the way I see it — again — the workflow is really simple.

你有你的投资组合，它是量身定制的。你还有一个风险仪表盘。 You have your portfolio. It's tailored. And you have the risk dashboard.

但更重要的，是那些建议。所以“人”依然不可或缺，因为总得有人去主动管理那个可持续的投资组合、去管理那份风险。 But more important are the suggestions. And so a human is still needed, because someone has to actively manage that sustainable portfolio, that risk.

金融里早就有一样东西，叫“机器人投资”，也就是自动化投资，类似量化。 Something that has been around in finance for a long time is robo-investing — auto-investing, like quants.

它在金融里已经存在很久了。但还是那句话，人们在乎钱，在乎自己的钱。 And that's been around in finance for a long time. But, again — people care about money. Their money.

是自己的钱。所以，其中永远少不了一份人的温度。 Their own money. And so there's always a human touch.

你以前说过一句话，说你相信一门生意应当由“根本性的价值创造”来驱动。 And there's a specific line you've said before — that you believe in driving a business from fundamental value-add.

这句话对你意味着什么？这个信念又是从哪里来的？ What does that mean to you? And where does that belief come from?

好。首先是这样：如果你并没有在解决一个真实的问题，那就说明，第一，我也说不好。 Yeah. So the first thing is: if you're not solving a real problem, that means, one, — I don't know.

我一时不知道该怎么措辞。但那意味着，你并不了解这个行业。 I don't know quite how to put it. But it means you don't know the industry.

我是说，如果你在解决一个没人需要的问题，或者在创造某种多余的、毫无价值的东西，那你到底在做什么呢？ I mean, what are you even doing, if you're solving something nobody needs, or creating something extra that adds no value —

对另一个人、对社会中另一道流程，都没有任何价值。我们每一个人，其实都在做着某种创造价值的事，对吧？ no value to another person, or to another workflow in society? All of us are doing something to add value, right?

哪怕只是做我们自己，在餐厅打工，或者当一名学生。 Even just by being who we are — by working at a restaurant, by being a student.

我们每一个人，每一天都在努力创造价值。 All of us are trying to add value every single day.

而你偏偏在全世界都开始与 ESG 背道而驰的时候，创办了一家做可持续的公司。 And you started a sustainability company at a time when the world is turning against ESG.

这感觉像是时机不对吗？还是说，这其实恰恰是最合适的时机？ Did it feel like bad timing? Or is it actually the right moment to do it?

ESG 嘛……这么说吧。可持续性是非常被需要的。它就是风险管理。 So, ESG is... okay. Sustainability is much needed. It is risk management.

而它是一个系统性的问题，只要你有任何一个风险没顾及到，它就会像雪球一样越滚越大。 And it's a systemic issue that snowballs, the moment you fail to account for any given risk.

还有，当我说“风险”时，它基本上指的就是波动性。而波动，既可以是正向的，也可以是负向的。 And, again, when I say "risk," that basically means volatility. And volatility can be a positive one or a negative one.

那么，对一家公司来说，大多数人只在乎损失，对吧？ And so, for a company — most people only care about the losses, right?

是那种“损失厌恶”，而不是去看收益。可如果你去看上行的风险，其实这里面有大量增长的空间，你可以…… It's loss aversion, versus the gains. But if you look at the upside risks, there's actually a lot of room for growth that you could...

有大量机会，是你可以在这个领域里对冲、并且放到最大的。 and opportunity you could hedge against and maximize in this space.

国家需要它。公司需要它。个人也需要它。所以说到底，它解决的，是许许多多体系都真正需要的东西。 Countries need it. Companies need it. Individuals need it. So, underneath it all, it's solving something that a lot of systems need.

而且，对，唯一有点微妙的，是我们的名字。 And, right — the one thing is our name.

“Sustain（可持续）”。名字里带着“sustain”。但老实说，很多来找我们的人，并不是冲着“可持续”来的。 "Sustain." It has "sustain" in it. But honestly, a lot of the people who approach us don't come for sustainability.

我们确实和 ESG 投资团队、以及服务私募市场的 ESG 客户顾问团队合作。 So, we do work with ESG investment teams and ESG client-advisory teams for private markets.

但很多时候，来的是那些和 ESG 毫不相干的对冲基金。它们就是普通的基金。 But a lot of the time, it's hedge funds that aren't about ESG at all. They're just a fund.

它们来找我们，是因为存在一个真实的需求。还是那句话，它们想要的是， They approach us because there's a real need. Again, it's that they want to —

每个人都想要上行的收益，对吧？没错。 everyone wants the upside, right? Yes.

我突然想到一个点。我们稍微回到“问题”本身。 And this is something I just thought of. Let's go back a little bit to the problem.

你提到了风险。而我们这一代人所面临的最大风险，大概就是气候变化。 You mentioned risk. And the biggest risk our generation is probably facing is climate change.

我们都知道，气候变化在某种程度上是不可逆的。 And we all know that climate change is, to a certain extent, irreversible.

我们能做的，顶多是减缓它的冲击。我们注定会迎来一个更热的星球，对吧？ We can only really mitigate the impact. We're going to get a hotter planet, right?

我们注定……海平面注定会上升。唯一的问题，是上升多少。 We're going to... the sea level is going to rise. The only question is by how much.

而以现在的情况看，看看我们的政府、看看我们所有人正在做的事，我们大概根本没有真正减缓多少。 And at this point, looking at what our governments and all of us are doing, we're probably not really mitigating much of anything.

所以如果真是这样，那想想外面那成千上万家金融机构， So if that's the case, think about all those financial institutions out there —

想想它们，手里握着那么多资产，而这些资产都注定会被气候变化波及，对吧？ the thousands of them — they're probably holding so many assets that are going to be hit by climate change, right?

想想农业、旅游业，哪怕它们只是持有靠海的房地产，比如一座海滨度假村，那也会被海平面上升所冲击。 Think about agriculture, tourism — even if they just hold real estate near the ocean, like an ocean resort, that's going to be hit by sea-level rise.

所以，如果真是这样，也许我们将会看到的最大一场金融崩溃，就是气候变化。 So perhaps the biggest financial collapse we're going to see, if that's the case, is climate change.

而且几乎没有什么办法能真正减缓它、或者从中脱身。 And there's no real way to mitigate it or move away from it.

没错。所以这就是为什么，很多人如果是控股股东，就会去尝试“管理层沟通”，去改变董事会的决策。 Right. So that's why a lot of people, if they're majority shareholders, will try management engagement — changing the board's decisions.

但从根本上说，还是那句话，我认为真正需要的，是资本配置。因为一方面，你要关停一座燃煤电厂， But fundamentally, again, I think capital allocation is what's really needed. Because one thing is to retire a coal plant,

但另一方面，你还得再建起一座可持续的、或者说更高效的电厂。 but the other thing is to also install one that's sustainable, or more efficient.

所以，可持续性其实并不玄乎。它本质上就是“效率”。这也是为什么很多公司，政府可能在推着它们走，弄得它们直嘀咕“唉，又是监管”， So, actually, sustainability isn't some abstract thing. It is basically efficiency. And that's why a lot of companies — governments may be pushing them, like, "ugh, regulations" —

但它们其实也只是想把事情做得更快。这就是效率，更好的模型、更好的机器，对吧？ but they're also just trying to work faster. It's efficiency — better models, better machines, right?

可这一切都需要钱。而当下的世界经济，也并不怎么景气。 But everything needs money. And the world economy right now isn't doing that great either.

所以这些都是系统性的问题，彼此纠缠在一起，这也就回到了：为什么这个领域会如此复杂。 So these are all systemic issues, tangled together — which brings us back to why this area is so complicated.

我明白了。而你显然是提前看到了这一切，才决定创办公司、组建团队。 I see. And you clearly saw this coming, and decided to build a company, to assemble a team.

那我们来聊聊你搭起来的这支团队。你想到的第一个人是谁，就是那种“我一定要把这个人拉进团队”的人？ So let's talk about the team you built. Who was the first person you thought of — like, I have to get this person on the team?

你又是怎么说服他们的？ And how did you convince them?

是我的联合创始人，Abdullah，对，Abdullah Salat。他就是我拉进来的第一个人。 My co-founder, Abdullah — yes, Abdullah Salat. So my co-founder was the very first person.

那时候我们在大学里，下课后、课间、甚至期末考试期间都在碰头，那真是，怎么说呢， We were meeting after classes and between classes, during final exams, back in university — and it was, yeah,

是一股真正的冲劲，我们就这样一起成长起来。 it was a real drive, and we grew together.

有一件事特别重要，就是搭建团队，并且明白：人的头脑，才是最根本的“输入”，这也正是我如此看重我的团队的原因。 Something really important is building the team, and knowing that brains are the inputs — and that's why I really value my team.

那我确认一下，他从最开始，基本上就一直是你很要好的朋友，对吗？ So, just to clarify — he's been a very good friend of yours, basically from the very start?

哦，是的。我们一开始就是朋友。他的背景完全是计算机科学、计算机编程方向的。 Oh, yes. So we began as friends. He has a background entirely in computer science, in computer programming.

后来我就说：“我们应该，你愿意和我一起把这件事做起来吗？”他说：“好，我看得出你对这个问题是真的有热情。那我们试试。” And then I was like, "We should — do you want to drive this together?" And he said, "Okay, I can see you're really passionate about this issue. Let's try."

嗯，光是热情就已经，热情真的很重要。作为一个创始人，如果你看到一个问题、并且是发自内心地为它着迷，光这一点就能带着你走很远。 Well, passion is already — passion is really important. If you see a problem as a founder and you're genuinely passionate about it, that can carry you a long way.

是的。对。 Yes. Yeah.

而你现在的团队里，聚集了来自五湖四海的人，来自贝莱德（BlackRock）、来自剑桥、来自香港科技大学（HKUST），都围绕在你身边。 And right now your team has people from all over the place — from BlackRock, from Cambridge, from HKUST, all around you.

你是怎么把这样一支团队聚拢起来的，这么多有才华的人、这么多相信这个想法的人？ How did you end up assembling a team with so much talent, so many people who believe in this idea?

是的，我觉得最关键的，是我们正在解决的这个问题本身。 Yeah, I think the main thing is the problem we're solving.

这是一个，一来非常有意思、二来非常“混沌”的领域，“混沌”，是我一位团队成员形容它的原话。 This is an area that is, one, really interesting, and two, chaotic — "chaotic," as one of my team members described it.

哇。所以他把我形容成“混沌”，还把我们一位顾问也形容成“混沌”，而那位顾问，其实就是当年创办了我那个理学学士项目的人。 Wow. So he described me as chaotic, and one of our advisors as chaotic too — an advisor who actually founded my Bachelor of Science program.

她的背景是债务市场和金融，那都是很早以前的事了，如今她在学术界工作。 She has a background in debt markets and finance, from back in the day, and now she works in academia.

还是那句话，我们团队里，有绿色金融和机器学习的人，有教授， And, again — so our team is made up of green finance and machine learning; professors,

有研究员，有剑桥，一个风险研究中心，还有经济学家，以及做私募市场的人。 researchers, and Cambridge — a risk center — and economists and private-markets people.

而当我最初去向他们请教时，一开始他们都说：“这真的很难。” And when I first approached them for advice, at the very beginning, they were all like, "This is really hard."

但是，我爱他们每一个人。他们无比支持我，我们团队也是。每个人，因为都来自这样的背景，要么对金融、要么对可持续、要么对风险管理，怀着一份真正的兴趣。 And — but I love all of them. They are incredibly supportive, and our team as well. Everyone, coming from this background, has an interest in either finance, or sustainability, or risk management.

你还相信一点，你以前说过，你会非常用心地投资于你自己的人、你自己的团队。 And you also believe — you've said this before — that you invest really heavily in your own people, in your own team.

这在实际中是什么样子？你们是一支年轻的团队、一家年轻的公司，手上的资源大概远不如一家大企业。 What does that look like in practice? You're a young team, a young company, that probably doesn't have as many resources as a big corporation.

那你是怎么投资于你身边这些人的？ So how do you invest in the people around you?

当然。第一件事，是了解每个人的热情所在、他们的需求，以及他们想要成长的方向。 Of course. So the first thing is knowing everyone's passions, their needs, and the areas they want to grow in.

我总是给他们成长的机会，因为凭我自己的人脉，我有很多机会能让他们去参加行业活动，而他们也确实去了很多。 I always give them opportunities to grow, because through my own networks, I have a lot of chances for them to attend industry events — and they do go to a lot of them.

这一切，都是为了拓宽他们的学习机会、他们的视野，也让他们能真正身处市场之中。 It's about growing their learning opportunities, their exposure, and letting them be out there in the market too.

而且所有核心成员都持有已归属的股权。作为创始人， And all the core members have vested equity. And as a founder,

我觉得有一点特别重要：有时候我停不下来，或者脑子里冒出一个想法， one thing I think is really important: sometimes I can't stop, or I get an idea,

我就必须爬起来，赶在忘掉之前把它真正记下来。 and I have to get up and actually write it down before I forget it.

是的，但关键在于，别把这股压力，转嫁到我的团队身上。 Yes — but the important thing is not to pass that pressure on to my team.

给他们所需要的平衡，还有沟通。我自己也需要把沟通做得更好，但沟通真的很重要，就是给每个人留出他们需要的空间。 Giving them the balance they need, and communication. I myself need to communicate better, but communication is really important — just giving everyone the space they need.

我是说，作为一个创业公司的创始人，你脑子里大概有一大堆想做的点子，但并不是每一件都赶上了合适的时机，我能想象。 I mean, as a startup founder, you probably have tons of ideas you want to pursue, but not everything is the right timing, I can imagine.

而我们这档播客，特别想挖掘出创业者们在这一路上真正经历过的那些故事。 And this podcast really wants to uncover the stories that startup founders live through on their journey.

我猜想，在打造这家公司的过程中，一定有过一些非常艰难的时刻。 I suspect there have probably been some really difficult moments building this company.

我很想弄明白：有没有那么一个具体的瞬间，无论是从零到一，还是从零走到今天，让你觉得这一切都无比值得、无比充实？ And I really want to understand: was there a specific moment — going from zero to one, or from zero to where you are now — that made you feel like it's all so fulfilling, that it was all worth it?

那种感觉一定很奇妙。有没有一个具体的故事、或者一个瞬间，是你可以分享的？任何都行。 It's really fascinating. Is there a specific story you can share, or a moment? Anything?

一个具体的故事？我会说，那种感觉是贯穿始终、一直都在的。但有一句我一直奉行的座右铭，它让我把前路看得很清楚，是一句中文。 A specific story? I'd say it's been constant, throughout. But there's one motto I live by that made me see the path clearly — it's in Mandarin.

“永远不要忘记你从哪里开始，也不要忘记你为什么开始。”这不仅关乎我们正在攻克的那个痛点，也关乎从最初起，我心里对这家公司如何成长的那幅画面。 "Never forget where you began, or why you began." And this relates not only to the pain point we're addressing, but also to how I've pictured this company growing, right from the very beginning.

比如说，回到当年那些幻灯片还像学生课堂作业一样的时候。是啊。对。 Like, back when the slides looked like school-project presentations. Yeah. Yeah.

我想那就是那股驱动的力量。再往后，当然，就有了实实在在的进展，那是一种持续不断的肾上腺素飙升，它驱动的不只是我， I think that would be the driving thing. And then, of course, there's traction — and it's just a constant adrenaline rush that drives not only me,

还有我整个团队。他们会说：“天呐，我太期待这次展会了！”每天晚上，大家都激动得睡不着，一直聊着那场展会。是啊，那种感觉很棒。 but my whole team too. They're like, "Oh my God, I'm so excited for this exhibition!" Every evening, everyone's too excited to go to bed, just chatting about the exhibition. Yeah, it's great.

是啊，我很有共鸣。没有什么比亲手造出一样东西、再看到别人喜欢它，更好的感觉了。 Yeah, I can resonate with that. There's no better feeling than building something yourself and seeing people like it.

是的。所以你有了团队，有了势头。那我们就说到你真正把产品做出来的地方吧。 Yeah. So you have a team, you have momentum. Let's get into where you actually built the product.

大多数听众，大概都没用过 SustainAlpha。 So, most of the listeners have probably never used SustainAlpha.

我自己也没用过。那你能不能用最朴素的话讲讲，假设， I've never used it. So can you describe, in very plain words — let's say,

一位投资组合经理周一早上走进办公室，他或她会看到什么？它又能为我做些什么？ a portfolio manager walks into the office on Monday morning — what does he or she see, and what does it do for me?

也许不只是周一，而是贯穿一整周、甚至一整个月。 Maybe not just on Monday, but throughout the whole week, or the whole month.

好。你会打开这个平台，它是 SSO（单点登录）加密的，里面有一个仪表盘。 Yeah. So you'd open the platform — it's SSO-encrypted — and there's a dashboard.

你可以对任何一个投资组合做回测，包括你自己的，它会显示你最近一次使用的、或者上一个投资组合。 You're able to backtest any portfolio, including your own, and it shows your most recently used, or last, portfolio.

你还会看到自己此前生成的那些报告，用来解读风险、给客户提建议， And you'd have the previous reports you've generated — for interpreting risk and advising clients,

用来给客户提建议，或者用于你自己投资组合的决策。而其中很关键的一点，就是那些建议。 for advising clients, or for your own portfolio decisions. And one key thing is the suggestions.

风险仪表盘只是一个可视化的界面，让你一眼看清， So the risk dashboard is only a visual, for you to see, okay,

我的风险敞口有多大，以及我投资组合里的公司或资产，在市场上表现如何。 how much exposure I have, and how well my portfolio companies or assets are performing in the market.

然后，你还能看到上行和下行两方面的动态。 And then you have the upside and downside news.

那么据我理解，你们其实会给出一个数字，一个实实在在的建议，告诉你每一项资产持仓该调整多少。 So, from my understanding, you actually give a number — an actual suggestion for how much each asset holding should be adjusted.

没错。 Right.

那我就很好奇，风险是怎么，因为我想风险有可以量化的部分，但很多时候，风险是没法量化的。 So I'm curious — how does risk... because I guess there are quantifiable aspects of risk, but a lot of the time risk isn't quantifiable.

那风险最终，是怎么从千头万绪的种种风险，变成末了那一个数字的？ So how does risk end up turning from everything — all those risks — into a single number in the end?

也就是，什么进去，什么出来？ So what goes in, and what comes out?

好问题。你想象一下。就像我前面说的，我是用“系统”的框架来思考的。 Great question. So imagine this. As I mentioned earlier, I think in terms of systems.

你拿任何一项资产，它可以是一家公司，可以是一个国家，可以是石油，随便什么都行。 So you take any asset — it could be a company, it could be a country, it could be oil, whatever.

有“特质风险”，也就是资产本身独有的：它的区域表现，对照它自身的发展轨迹。 There's idiosyncratic risk, which is asset-specific: its regional performance, versus its own trajectory.

比如，我设了一个 KPI 目标，要在 2026 年前把碳排放降到某个水平，但我实际的表现又如何？ For example, I set a target KPI to reach a certain level of carbon emissions by 2026 — but what's my actual performance?

然后还有“行业层面”的风险。你说得对，在“风险”之下，既有定量的，也有定性的。 And then there's sectoral risk. And you're right — under "risk," there's both quantitative and qualitative.

定量的，比如碳排放等等，或者像男女比例这样的统计数字。定性的，则是诸如董事会治理、以及媒体审视这类东西。 The quantitative — so carbon emissions and so on, or counts like female-to-male ratios. The qualitative ones are things like board management and media scrutiny.

所以你想象一下，我们的模型会纳入海量的这类信息。这就是它之所以“多维”的原因。 And so, imagine — our model takes in a huge amount of all that information. That's how it's multi-dimensional.

然后，你再把它叠加到另一样同样是多维的东西之上， And then you add that on top of something else that's also multi-dimensional,

也就是金融那一面。所以你要看公司的基本面、公司的回报、它的风险，也就是抛开那些外部因素之后的“基本面风险”，然后你才生成出一个东西。 which is the financial side. So you look at company fundamentals, company returns, its risk — fundamental risk — without those external factors, and then you generate something.

好，所以有非常多的东西，最终汇入一个更大的方程式，替投资组合经理把这一切都量化出来。 Okay, so there's a lot that goes into a bigger equation that quantifies everything for the portfolio manager.

没错。 Right.

那么，在不泄露太多的前提下，我知道这是你们的专有技术，那个模型在底层、在系统的表面之下，究竟是怎么运作的？ And, without giving too much away — I know it's your proprietary technology — how does that model actually work under the hood, below the surface of the system?

好。用最简单的话说，它是一个大型的机器学习模型，并且在持续不断地更新。 Yeah. So, in simple terms — it's a large machine-learning model, and it's constantly updated.

我们的做法是，你想象一下：一大团信息涌进来，然后我们根据它对这项资产在财务上有多“重要”，去做筛选。 And the way we do it is — imagine this: a huge ball of information comes in, and then we filter it by how financially material it is to the asset.

模型的架构，就是为了高效地完成这件事而设计的。之后，会有一套筛选算法，接着你就得到了我前面提到的那些资产维度。 So the model is architected to do that efficiently. And after that, there's a filtering algorithm, and then you arrive at the asset dimensions I mentioned earlier.

然后，噔噔，你就得到了那个仪表盘。 And then — ta-da — you get the dashboard.

很好。那我们就得聊聊竞争对手了，虽然又不能真去聊它们。 Nice. And we have to talk about competitors — without talking about them.

因为不聊，就没法讲清楚你们的产品究竟特别在哪里。这个领域里，是有其他玩家的。 If we can't, it doesn't quite show what makes your product stand out. So there are other existing players in this space.

据我查到的，有像 Private Technologies、Blue Onion、TurboNet Zero 这样的名字，这些只是我偶然查到、稍微研究了一下的。 From my research, there are names like Private Technologies, Blue Onion, TurboNet Zero — these are just the ones I came across, that I looked into.

我对它们了解不算多，但你觉得，你们的产品和它们相比，究竟如何？ I don't understand a whole lot about them, but how do you think your product stacks up against theirs?

有什么是你们做得更好的，又有什么是它们更擅长、而你们还比不上的？ What's something you're doing better — or something they're better at that you're not?

好。其实，Blue Onion 是一家投资方、一支基金，它们也具备这样的能力。 Yeah. So, actually, Blue Onion is an investor, a fund, and they do have this capability as well.

所以我把它们看作合作伙伴，因为我们是携手在做事。 And so I see them as partners, because we work hand in hand.

所以这三家里，其中两家， So of these three, two of the three companies —

我其实都认识，我认识它们的联合创始人和创始人。这是因为，首先，可持续是一个很小的圈子，所以这张网络非常紧密。而且还是那句话， I actually know — I know the co-founders and the founders. And that's because, first, sustainability is a small field, so the network is really tight-knit. And again,

归根结底是一场共同的努力，我们的产品做的这件事，它们要么可以拿去提供给自己的客户，要么它们本就已经有了，因为我们只专注做我们这一件事，而不是去提供 CRM、去做整套工作流系统。就是这样。 it comes back to a combined effort — where our product does something they can either offer to their own clients, or already have — because we specialize in what we do, instead of offering CRM and whole-workflow systems. Yeah.

我明白了。那你会说，就这项技术而言，你们最大的护城河是什么？ I see. So what would you say is your biggest moat when it comes to this technology?

是技术、是模型、是数据，还是你们的专业能力？可以是很多东西，但你们最大的几道护城河，都是什么？ Is it the technology, the model, the data, your expertise? It could be a bunch of things — but what are a few of your biggest moats?

我会说，是技术，以及技术背后的这群人。所以，是团队加技术。 The technology, and the people backing the technology, I'd say. So, the team and the technology.

这是一个被低估的领域，而这项技术，是一样高度定量、 It's an area that's undervalued, and the technology is something that's very quantitative,

却又复杂到极难做成的东西。它是真的很难做。 but complex in a way that makes it so hard to do. It is hard to do.

所以我会说，那就是护城河。 And so I'd say that is the moat.

但我觉得也许还有另一个维度，就是时机，因为你正好站在这样一个节点上：这一切都变得越来越重要，对吧？ But I think there's maybe another dimension too — timing — because you're at the exact moment where all of this is becoming more and more important, right?

没错。对。 Right. Yeah.

我们把镜头稍微拉远一点，来看看更大的图景，也来到这场访谈的最后一部分。 Let's zoom out a little to look at the bigger picture, toward the last part of this interview.

如果 SustainAlpha 彻底做成了，那么五年、十年之后，全世界的钱被管理的方式，会有什么不同？ If SustainAlpha completely works out, what's different about how the world's money gets managed five or ten years from now?

好问题。我会说，乐观的图景是：风险管理越来越成熟，不确定性越来越小。 Nice question. I'd say the optimistic view is that risk management grows, and uncertainty shrinks.

那是每个人都在努力做的事，或者说，我们试图把不确定性量化出来。 That's what everyone is trying to do — or, we try to quantify uncertainty.

但我会说，最重要的，是在全球范围内，它变得更加标准化。 But I'd say the most important thing is that, worldwide, it becomes more standardized.

也就是说，在这个领域里，量化风险管理和不确定性，有了一套统一的标准做法。 There are standardized ways of quantifying risk management and uncertainty in this area.

我明白了。那么，基于你们目前的状况，你们已经做出的东西、已经有的客户、以及公司当下的状态，有什么是你们想立刻着手去做的？ I see. And based on where you are now — what you've built, the customers you have, and the current state of your company — what's something you want to work on immediately?

有没有一个短期的信号，我们可以留意，比如一年、也许两年之内，一个人们可以追踪的信号，让大家看到：好，SustainAlpha 走在正确的道路上， And is there a short-term signal we can watch — say in a year, maybe two — a signal people can follow to see, okay, SustainAlpha is on the right track.

他们前途无量。 They're going to be great.

有一件我们，我会说，好，我们确实在全球都有合作伙伴，无论是战略伙伴还是客户。但我会说，对任何一家公司、任何一门生意来说，一个关键指标，是有机的营收增长，或者说有机的进展。 Something we — I would say, okay, so we do have global partners worldwide, whether strategic partners or clients. But I'd say a key point for any company, any business, is organic revenue growth, or organic traction.

那，也是我们自己看重的一个信号。 And that's something that's a signal for us as well.

它也是我们团队会去追踪、并且真心引以为傲的东西。 And it's something our team tracks, and is really proud of, too.

你最大的野心是什么？比如，想象 SustainAlpha 抵达某个节点，你所能设想的、最理想的那一刻。 What's your biggest ambition? Like, imagine SustainAlpha reaching a point — the most ideal moment you could possibly have.

你能为我们描绘一下吗？那最理想的，你所能拥有的最大的野心。 Can you describe that for us? The most ideal — the biggest ambition you could possibly have.

是“影响力”。我这么说的意思是：一旦我们足够大了，但愿如此， Engagement. By that, I mean: once we're big enough — fingers crossed —

我们就能用自己的地位和公信力，去推动这个领域里足够多的、真正的行动。 then we'll be able to use our position and our credibility to drive enough real action in this space.

那不只是资本配置，还包括帮助各国政府和企业完成转型。 That would be not just capital allocation, but also helping governments and companies transition.

有很多国家和政府、或者企业，在这个领域里步履维艰，要么是在资金上，要么就是缺人指点该怎么做。 There are a lot of countries and governments, or companies, that are struggling in this area — whether in terms of financing, or just advice on how to do it.

它是那么偏向科学，可里面又牵扯着金融、牵扯着亏损，而我们还得同时把公司经营下去。这压力其实相当大。 It's so scientific, but there's finance, there are losses, and we're still running the business. It's quite stressful.

是啊，完全能理解。那么最后一个问题，这是我会问每一位来上这档播客的创始人和嘉宾的。 Yeah, absolutely. And the last question — this is one I ask every single founder and guest who comes on this podcast.

我们这档节目叫《雏形》，意思是我们想发现那些还处在“雏形”阶段的公司，并且一路追随它们的旅程。 We're called Prototype, which means we want to spot the prototype versions of companies, and follow them throughout the journey.

那你会对一个真正对创业感兴趣的人说些什么？ So what would you say to someone who's really interested in startups?

他可能是一位即将创业的准创始人，却觉得开一家公司太可怕、太危险、太冒险。 It could be a potential founder who's about to start a company, but who thinks starting one is too scary, too dangerous, too risky.

我会说：先做好你的功课。而如果你手里握着一个关键的问题，并且你本就身处那个行业、或者你对这个问题了如指掌， I'd say: do your research first. And if you have a key problem, and you're already in that industry, or you know the issue really well,

那就守住你的热情。去做吧。因为我们每个人，都是从某个起点开始的。你也不是一出生，就会走、会跑的。 then keep your passion. Do it. Because we all began somewhere. You didn't walk, or run, the moment you were born.

而最重要的是，永远不要忘记你最初想去解决的那个问题、那个痛点。 And most importantly, never forget the problem, and the pain point, you set out to solve.

太棒了。非常感谢你，Linda。这是一场非常精彩的访谈。 That's amazing. Thank you so much, Linda. This has been such a great interview.

能看到一家公司，是真心相信自己所解决的那个问题，而不只是拿一句漂亮的口号去说给别人听，这真的很难得。 It's really nice to see a company that truly believes in the problem it's solving, instead of just some fancy slogan they tell other people.

所以我真心希望 SustainAlpha 将来能成长为一家非常了不起的公司。祝你一切顺利。 So I really hope SustainAlpha becomes a really big company in the future. Good luck with everything.

谢谢你，Gavin。今天聊得很开心。 Thank you, Gavin. Great chat today.